Gay Is Now OK for Presbyterian Clergy

[dngnb8]

that is what i observe as well. Some make it a choice, some have the choice made. Women, from my experience, will be more prone to make the conscious choice. Many lesbians become lesbians after they tire of having men fail them. It is less about sex and more about fulfilling an emotional need that men have failed to meet. Most were victimized in one way or another, as well. One, in particular, is now a felon because of a man that worked over her credit and identity for her.

Many become so because they think it makes em popular. I see a trend among teens right now

[bigfatfurrytexan]

Many become so because they think it makes em popular. I see a trend among teens right now

yeah, but i don't usually consider teens. The actions of raging hormones are more extreme.

But you are right. The viewpoints on sexuality of a teenager today is outright unnerving.

[Crayon]

yeah, but i don't usually consider teens. The actions of raging hormones are more extreme.

But you are right. The viewpoints on sexuality of a teenager today is outright unnerving.

I question this from the viewpoint of history-what exactly is unnerving? I mean, humanity through history, has had certain... trends, and I don't see the modern generation as any different. Are certain things as taboo as they once were? No, but just because there is wider acceptance of certain acts does not mean the acts themselves are done any more than they have been done. Take into account the Spartan society, sodomy in males was essentially part of the training in becoming a Spartan soldier. American forefathers essentially owned sex slaves.

[bigfatfurrytexan]

I question this from the viewpoint of history-what exactly is unnerving? I mean, humanity through history, has had certain... trends, and I don't see the modern generation as any different. Are certain things as taboo as they once were? No, but just because there is wider acceptance of certain acts does not mean the acts themselves are done any more than they have been done. Take into account the Spartan society, sodomy in males was essentially part of the training in becoming a Spartan soldier. American forefathers essentially owned sex slaves.

One example:



Throughout history we have not fed our children foodstuffs with large amounts of hormones. Nor have they had access to 24/7 porn. There are aspects of this i will discuss with you in private just because terms like ATM and DVDA have no place in the forum.

[Scared Frenchman]

Homosexuality has been shown all throughout the animal kingdom

Hilarity. No wonder Crayon thinks the way he does. Because animals do it, that somehow legitimizes it alltogether. Now, if we could just get past that whole eating your own poo stigma.

Here's some pretty clear scripture on the matter for me:

Romans 1

"18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.




In the Bible, homosexuality is shown to be a sin. There is no getting around that. Pre-marital sex is a sin. Murder is a sin. Just because people commit other sins does not reduce homosexuality to "sin lite". A sin is a sin. We all know that the wages of sin is death. None of us in this forum are free from sin. However, as Bob has pointed out, we are not to tolerate sin in our lives. The whole issue of homosexuality is being pressed upon us as being "natural" and just another lifestyle choice (see Crayon's absurd post for confirmation). Just as you cannot have a convicted murderer effectively lead a church, you cannot have an avowed homosexual doing so. That's not to say pastor's and other clergy are free from sin. I doubt any of us would be comfortable with a pastor who publicly acknowledges that he sleeps around, so how is it wrong for anyone to have the same reservation with a practicing homosexual?

I don't condemn homosexuals. I don't judge them. And by judge, I mean determine where they will be headed one day. What I do is to identify behavior that is sinful. That is not against the Bible. I look at my own actions and see sin. Am I judging myself when I do that? I don't think so. I like to believe that despite what I have done in life, I have a chance at redemption through the grace of God, if I acknowledge him and follow his teachings. You can still be a homosexual and be on that same path, in my belief. At some point, a homosexual will have to face God for his decisions just as I have. If they believe that their view of the Bible and God's teachings allow them to engage in their lifestyle, then its on them. The word of God is open to interpretation for sure. However, I believe that this topic is pretty clear. You have to depart from the Word and relegate God to a lower importance to justify homosexuality. I'm not able to do that.

[HoustonTX]

I wonder why there is such an uproar about homosexuality as opposed to other issues. I don't think I've ever heard a minister get in an uproar about gluttony. I wonder why? Is it because so many pastors themselves struggle with gluttony? I think maybe it's easier to judge the stuff we don't do. The Bible has a whole lot to say about gluttony, yet so often the debate is about homosexuality.

If it's not ok to have a gay minister, then why is it ok to have an overweight minister who is not actively trying to change his/her behavior? I think about the pastor I had growing up. He was overweight, and when he retired we had a church potluck. Nobody was bothered by his sin of gluttony. Why?

I have no issue with people who are overweight, and I could certainly stand to lose a few pounds myself. I just use that issue as an example, because it's also mentioned in the Bible and it's one that many people struggle with (including ministers) yet no one seems to be interested in judging ministers who engage in that particular activity. You never hear of anyone being defrocked for having a belly that hangs over their pants. Why not?

(Not arguing for or against gay Presbyterian ministers by the way, just curious why the focus on this issue as opposed to so many others. And, I mention it because I like to stir the pot ;-)

[bigfatfurrytexan]

I wonder why there is such an uproar about homosexuality as opposed to other issues. I don't think I've ever heard a minister get in an uproar about gluttony. I wonder why? Is it because so many pastors themselves struggle with gluttony? I think maybe it's easier to judge the stuff we don't do. The Bible has a whole lot to say about gluttony, yet so often the debate is about homosexuality.

If it's not ok to have a gay minister, then why is it ok to have an overweight minister who is not actively trying to change his/her behavior? I think about the pastor I had growing up. He was overweight, and when he retired we had a church potluck. Nobody was bothered by his sin of gluttony. Why?

I have no issue with people who are overweight, and I could certainly stand to lose a few pounds myself. I just use that issue as an example, because it's also mentioned in the Bible and it's one that many people struggle with (including ministers) yet no one seems to be interested in judging ministers who engage in that particular activity. You never hear of anyone being defrocked for having a belly that hangs over their pants. Why not?

(Not arguing for or against gay Presbyterian ministers by the way, just curious why the focus on this issue as opposed to so many others. And, I mention it because I like to stir the pot ;-)

outstanding post. i love it when you wax intellectualism.

[Scared Frenchman]

I wonder why there is such an uproar about homosexuality as opposed to other issues. I don't think I've ever heard a minister get in an uproar about gluttony. I wonder why? Is it because so many pastors themselves struggle with gluttony? I think maybe it's easier to judge the stuff we don't do. The Bible has a whole lot to say about gluttony, yet so often the debate is about homosexuality.

Our minister has preached on this. He has even depricated himself on this issue. In our church, he makes it very clear that we are to be good stewards of our environment and that we are to take care of ourselves physically.

You are correct that gluttony is just as much of a sin as homosexuality. God gave us our bodies in order to glorify him and when you knowingly abuse that, you do it against God. The difference I see is that even though a person may be a glutton, I don't see where they preach tolerance and acceptance of that. I agree their actions speak volumes but when you have a person who wants to be a leader of the church outright claiming that their sin should be looked over, and further, accepted by the church and condoned, then that is a different path.

[dngnb8]

I don't condemn homosexuals. I don't judge them. And by judge, I mean determine where they will be headed one day. What I do is to identify behavior that is sinful. That is not against the Bible. I look at my own actions and see sin.

SF gets it. This is the discernment spoken of earlier. The ability to recognize what would be a sin for us isnt a judgment.

well said

[dngnb8]

I wonder why there is such an uproar about homosexuality as opposed to other issues. I don't think I've ever heard a minister get in an uproar about gluttony. I wonder why? Is it because so many pastors themselves struggle with gluttony? I think maybe it's easier to judge the stuff we don't do. The Bible has a whole lot to say about gluttony, yet so often the debate is about homosexuality.

If it's not ok to have a gay minister, then why is it ok to have an overweight minister who is not actively trying to change his/her behavior? I think about the pastor I had growing up. He was overweight, and when he retired we had a church potluck. Nobody was bothered by his sin of gluttony. Why?

I have no issue with people who are overweight, and I could certainly stand to lose a few pounds myself. I just use that issue as an example, because it's also mentioned in the Bible and it's one that many people struggle with (including ministers) yet no one seems to be interested in judging ministers who engage in that particular activity. You never hear of anyone being defrocked for having a belly that hangs over their pants. Why not?

(Not arguing for or against gay Presbyterian ministers by the way, just curious why the focus on this issue as opposed to so many others. And, I mention it because I like to stir the pot ;-)

You are correct. All sin is equal. Maybe its because Homosexuality is in the media so much today. With the media barrage, Church leadership feels the need to reinforce what The Bible teaches. As I said earlier, many kids today think same sex relations is vogue. They arent G/L's, they just think its cool. That is what media does.

The Bible teaches us all sin is equal. A homosexual event is = to a gluttonous event. Forgiveness is equal as well.

[HoustonTX]

Our minister has preached on this. He has even depricated himself on this issue. In our church, he makes it very clear that we are to be good stewards of our environment and that we are to take care of ourselves physically.

You are correct that gluttony is just as much of a sin as homosexuality. God gave us our bodies in order to glorify him and when you knowingly abuse that, you do it against God. The difference I see is that even though a person may be a glutton, I don't see where they preach tolerance and acceptance of that. I agree their actions speak volumes but when you have a person who wants to be a leader of the church outright claiming that their sin should be looked over, and further, accepted by the church and condoned, then that is a different path.

In retrospect, I do recall a few sermons about the body being a temple, although I don't remember them getting particularly worked up about it. Yet, I've never heard of anyone being removed from teh pulpit for being fat. The denomination that the church I sporadically attend is a part of would defrock openly gay clergy (at present, anyway), but I've seen more than a few fat clergy in that particular denomination and church leadership has no problem with that, apparently. I guess I have some suspicions that maybe church leaders aren't being entirely honest with themselves. If it were truly about taking a stand against unrepentant sin, then they would be throwing out fat clergy who continue to load their plates with goodies at church functions - but they don't do that. Even in the hellfire church I grew up in the youth director looked like he as about to birth a basketball and the pastor grew bigger each year, but they weren't thrown out - if they were openly gay they would have been.

C'mon. I need someone to argue with me. I'm feeling ornery and troublemaker-ish.

[Scared Frenchman]

C'mon. I need someone to argue with me. I'm feeling ornery and troublemaker-ish. [/COLOR]

Allright then. Jellies sandals are the most attractive footwear ever created.

[bigfatfurrytexan]

In retrospect, I do recall a few sermons about the body being a temple, although I don't remember them getting particularly worked up about it. Yet, I've never heard of anyone being removed from teh pulpit for being fat. The denomination that the church I sporadically attend is a part of would defrock openly gay clergy (at present, anyway), but I've seen more than a few fat clergy in that particular denomination and church leadership has no problem with that, apparently. I guess I have some suspicions that maybe church leaders aren't being entirely honest with themselves. If it were truly about taking a stand against unrepentant sin, then they would be throwing out fat clergy who continue to load their plates with goodies at church functions - but they don't do that. Even in the hellfire church I grew up in the youth director looked like he as about to birth a basketball and the pastor grew bigger each year, but they weren't thrown out - if they were openly gay they would have been.

C'mon. I need someone to argue with me. I'm feeling ornery and troublemaker-ish.

i think it boils down to two things-

1. people like to control each other. religion is a VERy good way to control people.

2. religion has been used since time immemorial to divide the populace to make them easier to conquer and subjugate. The Roman's did this expertly. So well, in fact, that their skill lives on today with the entire Western World being their legacy. For an example, look at the current situation with Islam.

[blondegirl86]

I think I would like to watch a sermon delivered by a gay man. It might be interesting.

I have a question... now keep in mind I am not wanting to argue religion because I am not good at it.

Here it goes:

So before and during the civil rights movement when white people treated minority people poorly... didn't they have scripture that led them to feel justified in their actions?

I kind of feel like we have kind of conquered the racial prejudice (somewhat) and next up will be sexuality.

[dngnb8]

So before and during the civil rights movement when white people treated minority people poorly... didn't they have scripture that led them to feel justified in their actions?

Man has always twisted, misinterpreted Gods Word. Man does because of several things. Hate, Greed, Power, etc.

These traits are not of God, but of Man, because Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge. Man became aware of Hate, Greed, Power etc from that bite, and that is why Man was expelled from the Garden.

Interpretation is what we all have to live by. If we let bias sway those interpretations, then we get things like Holy Wars.

SF gave a very good description of how this works. The key is how we choose to live our lives. We must "discern" (a form of judgment) what is right and wrong. The key is when we apply our discernment's or judgments on others. This is the nuance that SF and I constantly post on.

What we are saying is, The Bible speaks to us and says being Gay is a sin for us. We therefore, do not perform those acts as our discernment of the scripture. Where people cross the line is when their hate drives their interpretation and think we have to judge others lives and involve ourselves to a level or even passing laws because of that judgment.

The Bible is a tome of information. Not just a few quotable scriptures. The point is God wants us, His children, to come to Him. Part of our duty as Christians, is to bring people to Him.

Do you think people will come to God if we legislate hate laws against them? Are these good examples of Fellowship? People here, BFFT, Crayon, among others in the past, has raised the Hypocrisy issue, with Christians. And theyre correct! That hypocrisy is part of what keeps them away from God.

God doesnt want His Word legislated, He wants BFFT, Crayon and the others to come to Him out of their heart, not their civil legal structure. Hate Legislation is a tool that continues to keep people away from God.