Catholic League Poised To Go To War With Obama Over Mandatory Birth Control Payments

[bob]

And lets be honest, there are plenty of sources for affordable, even free contraception one can go to without having to shakedown a nun.

[Vendetta]

And lets be honest, there are plenty of sources for affordable, even free contraception one can go to without having to shakedown a nun.

[t1]

Cardinal-Designate Dolan: President Obama Needs To Stop ‘Intruding Into Internal Life Of A Church’
Contraception Issue Just Won't Die Down, Much To White House's Chagrin
February 8, 2012 11:50 PM

NEW YORK (CBSNewYork) — There was a sharp rebuke Wednesday from Cardinal-designate Timothy Dolan that put even more pressure on the president to calm a widening election year uproar. The issue at hand was the president’s insistence that Catholic institutions provide free birth control to their employees.

Dolan came to the South Bronx to bless a library, but he had no blessings — just harsh words — for President Barack Obama, who wants Catholic institutions to pay for birth control, the morning after pill and other services for people who work for them.

“The federal government should do what it’s traditionally done since July 4, 1776, namely back out of intruding into the internal life of a church,” Dolan told CBS 2’s Marcia Kramer.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/02/...e-of-a-church/

[Vendetta]

I'm sure all the illegals Obama is allowing to vote will make up for the angry citizens who don't vote for him.

[bob]

Good article...The real trouble with the birth control mandate
...

I put "insurance" in quotes for a reason. Insurance is supposed to mean a contract, by which a company pays for large, unanticipated expenses in return for a premium: expenses like your house burning down, your car getting stolen or a big medical bill.
Insurance is a bad idea for small, regular and predictable expenses. There are good reasons that your car insurance company doesn't add $100 per year to your premium and then cover oil changes, and that your health insurance doesn't charge $50 more per year and cover toothpaste. You'd have to fill out mountains of paperwork, the oil-change and toothpaste markets would become much less competitive, and you'd end up spending more.

...

Here's a good mandate: Let's mandate that every time a government official says that the government is going to "help" some category of voter, he or she has to say who they are going to hurt in the same sentence. Because it has to be someone.

...

But what about the fact, you may ask, that unwanted children are a burden on society as well as to their mothers? Perhaps there is a social interest in subsidizing birth control? Perhaps there is—but if so, this is an awful way to do it.

The minute pills are "free," under insurance, the incentive for drug companies to come up with cheaper versions vanishes. So does their incentive to develop safer, more convenient, male-centered or nonprescription birth control. And by making pills free but not condoms, the government may inadvertently be contributing to an increase in sexually transmitted diseases.

The taxes and spending we argue about are the tip of the iceberg. Salting mandated health insurance with birth control is exactly the same as a tax—on employers, on Catholics, on gay men and women, on couples trying to have children and on the elderly—to subsidize one form of birth control.

If the government wants to subsidize birth control, OK, pass an explicit tax, and sensibly subsidize all birth control. And face the voters on it. The tax rate and spending debates that occupy the media are a small part of the effective taxes and spending that the government achieves by these regulatory mandates.

[bigfatfurrytexan]

My thoughts: i don't care that it is catholics involved here. The question is, are they considered an "employer" as per the insurance law?

I think the answer is yes.

I also think that as it relates to the freedom of religion, this law is unconstitutional.

But, on a side note, we all know that the only reason the Catholics have the anti-birth control viewpoint is to fill up more pews and gain more tithing. It isn't about God, unless God is green.

[Macadoo]

And of course Obamacare, even before it is fully implemented, is already going where anybody with a brain knew it would. With the government in control, decisions on coverage will be made for political purposes, not true medical ones. We saw this last year when one of the numerous advisory boards recommended changing the frequency of mammograms. That wasn't politically popular so bye bye.

[bob]

My thoughts: i don't care that it is catholics involved here. The question is, are they considered an "employer" as per the insurance law?

I agree. It's a question of freedom in general.
Employee provided insurance up this point was incentivized through tax policy. Now employers are compelled to provide it under penalty of law.
Before, if you had an objection, any objection, to providing this or that "insurance", you at least had the choice of providing nothing at all.
Now you must provide what you are told to provide, or pay the penalty.

But, on a side note, we all know that the only reason the Catholics have the anti-birth control viewpoint is to fill up more pews and gain more tithing. It isn't about God, unless God is green.

Wow. This is plain ugly. You impugn and question the faith and convictions of millions of Catholics, not to mention many who personally oppose birth control who are not Catholic. What makes you so sure? Can you see into their hearts and minds?

[bigfatfurrytexan]

I agree. It's a question of freedom in general.
Employee provided insurance up this point was incentivized through tax policy. Now employers are compelled to provide it under penalty of law.
Before, if you had an objection, any objection, to providing this or that "insurance", you at least had the choice of providing nothing at all.
Now you must provide what you are told to provide, or pay the penalty.


Wow. This is plain ugly. You impugn and question the faith and convictions of millions of Catholics, not to mention many who personally oppose birth control who are not Catholic. What makes you so sure? Can you see into their hearts and minds?

It would only be ugly if i had such intent.

Look, the "no birth control" policy dovetails with the ages old approach of improving bottom line by improving tithing/taxing (depending on entity). It isn't a big secret or anything.

What does the Church base its edict on, scripturally?

[bob]

It would only be ugly if i had such intent.

B.S. Your intent is to accuse an entire church and most of it's adherents of deception and greed, dismissing the possibility that they are simply acting on their conscience and following their tradition. I think that is ugly. I do not agree with many Catholic doctrines, but I do not have the gall to question the sincerity of those who do. You do. Gall = bile = bad taste = ugly.

Look, the "no birth control" policy dovetails with the ages old approach of improving bottom line by improving tithing/taxing (depending on entity). It isn't a big secret or anything.

"no birth control" isn't taught by the Catholic church. No artificial birth control is. Abstinence is allowed. The rythm method is encouraged. There is a lot more to it.

The Catholic church has plenty of fault and certainly a dark history of laying up treasures on earth. But flawed praxis by flawed people does not invalidate the principal of giving that is taught in the Bible.

What does the Church base its edict on, scripturally?

I'm not Catholic, so I don't know but you can look it up. I'm sure that someone in the Catholic church has written something about it over the last 2000 years.

[bigfatfurrytexan]

B.S. Your intent is to accuse an entire church and most of it's adherents of deception and greed, dismissing the possibility that they are simply acting on their conscience and following their tradition. I think that is ugly. I do not agree with many Catholic doctrines, but I do not have the gall to question the sincerity of those who do. You do. Gall = bile = bad taste = ugly.

"no birth control" isn't taught by the Catholic church. No artificial birth control is. Abstinence is allowed. The rythm method is encouraged. There is a lot more to it.

The Catholic church has plenty of fault and certainly a dark history of laying up treasures on earth. But flawed praxis by flawed people does not invalidate the principal of giving that is taught in the Bible.

I'm not Catholic, so I don't know but you can look it up. I'm sure that someone in the Catholic church has written something about it over the last 2000 years.

LOL, you can think it ugly if you like. But you sure do crawl and jump through a lot of hoops to support that conclusion. How many "=" are there? And is there recognition that correlation is not causation? When i see it broken down using an equal sign, I cannot help but be suspicious of the logical fallacies that so often are attached to that symbol.

I frequently hear of how our nation is going to hell because of the rampant political correctness. This is 1 good example of that. Overly sensitive natures squash opinions and discussion. When subjects become taboo, ignorance flourishes.

[bigfatfurrytexan]

to add, abstinence is NOT birth control. You aren't controlling anything by being abstinent, other than your urges. I can see it being "self control", but not "birth control".


It is funny how accepting we will be of the strange customs of various Christian churches. But when those customs begin to belong to other churches, there is harsh criticism. I am recalling the past several years here and all the anti-muslim postings (i.e., how dumb the burka and veils are). Are sensibilities not threatened just because there is not a representative audience?

[bob]

LOL, you can think it ugly if you like. But you sure do crawl and jump through a lot of hoops to support that conclusion. How many "=" are there? And is there recognition that correlation is not causation? When i see it broken down using an equal sign, I cannot help but be suspicious of the logical fallacies that so often are attached to that symbol.

Don't be suspicious. I'm dealing more in synonyms. Ugly isn't my conclusion; it's just the first descriptive term that comes to mind when I read your decleration.
And I think that you are making the leap here, that the correlation between large families and large tithes exist because the clergy value money over teaching their parishioners how to live righteously, which in this case, for a Catholic, would be to abstain from artificial birth control. And I acknowledge that there have been and are some that devotedly serve Mammon, but I do not think it to be the norm, now or historically. There have always been sincere believers, and their orthodoxy regarding artificial birth control has on the whole been the same.

I frequently hear of how our nation is going to hell because of the rampant political correctness. This is 1 good example of that. Overly sensitive natures squash opinions and discussion. When subjects become taboo, ignorance flourishes.

Political correctness is a bad bad thing. But speaking peaceably and respectfully, and without gall towards one another, even in disagreement is not political correctness and more conducive to discussion. I'm learning that more and more. You should look into it. You seem to be growing more churlish, is this a Buddhist thing? I only ask because you are the only person I know now who has much knowledge of Bhuddism.

to add, abstinence is NOT birth control. You aren't controlling anything by being abstinent, other than your urges. I can see it being "self control", but not "birth control".

how is it not? You cannot become pregnant while abstinent. 100% effective control over conception.

It is funny how accepting we will be of the strange customs of various Christian churches. But when those customs begin to belong to other churches, there is harsh criticism. I am recalling the past several years here and all the anti-muslim postings (i.e., how dumb the burka and veils are). Are sensibilities not threatened just because there is not a representative audience?

I don't recall ever calling a burka or veil dumb.
I think it is fine to question the substance and basis of ones beliefs, including religion. But I think you should proceed cautiously when questioning sincerity and the things you just cannot ever really know. I believe because I have read that there are many Muslim women who wear a veil because their society forces them to. I know some who do it out of devotion and desire to follow their convictions. This is what they tell me. I would be a fool to say they are lying.

[bigfatfurrytexan]

I know a LOT of words. "Churlish" is a new one to me.

It is the first i have heard of such a description of myself. Perhaps I am being blunt due to a lack of time? Been pretty busy. Or maybe it is more a lack of time, as I am getting old and impatient.

Who knows.

When it comes to the Catholic church, I am cynical. I have spent a lifetime understanding where the "word of God" comes from. I don't base my cynicism on fallacy, for sure.

[bob]

When it comes to the Catholic church, I am cynical. I have spent a lifetime understanding where the "word of God" comes from. I don't base my cynicism on fallacy, for sure.

Having such knowledge, do you think that all Catholic clergy are frauds and all Catholic laity are fools?